Blepharospasm Bulletin Board

question about Klonopin together with Ambien
  Archive
Posted by: judith k ®
08/28/2010, 08:21:09
I was looking at Dr. Ledoux's chart in the 'Oral Medications' for Dystonia article.

So, the chart shows that: "Benzodiazepine: clonazepam (KLONOPIN), lorazepam (ATIVAN), diazepam (VALIUM)....
.....potentiate the effects of GABA on GABAA receptors"

whereas

"zolpidem (AMBIEN)..... binds to the benzodiazepine receptor 1"


I may well be misinterpreting this, but wonder if it suggests that the benzodiazepines and Ambien are working at cross purposes, if Ambien 'binds to the benzodiazepine receptor' whereas the benzodiazepine meds are supposed to be busy 'potentiating' the effects of GABA receptors.

Does anything here suggest that one shouldn't take benzodiazepine meds and Ambien at the same time, or am I misunderstanding what all this means?

I take both Ambien and Klonopin, so of course am particularly curious about this.

Judith K




| |   Current page

Replies to this message


Re: question about Klonopin together with Ambien
Re: question about Klonopin together with Ambien -- judith k Top of thread Archive
Posted by: hasty ®
08/28/2010, 09:56:53
Judith, if you have the same prescriber for both meds, he/she would have told you of any contraindications, as you might imagine. But I have personally been treated by docs who didn't bother to review my meds list before prescribing another med. Personally, I've always taken Klonopin for my BEB b/c it is an anti-spasmodic. My one & temporary foray into Ambien was short-lived, b/c I would wake up exactly 4 hours into sleep-time. Media consumer reports followed with this same observation. I was then offered Ambien CR (controlled release), but it was too expensive for my humble HMO world.



| | Where am I? Original message Top of thread Current page
Re: question about Klonopin together with Ambien
Re: Re: question about Klonopin together with Ambien -- hasty Top of thread Archive
Posted by: judith k ®
08/28/2010, 10:10:48
Hi,

I know doctors are supposed to tell about 'contraindications', but—in my experience/view, anyway—there are contraindications and then there are contraindications.
No doctor has told me not to take both Ambien and clonazepam. The dosage and the individual response seem to matter a lot there.
(And I'm still curious about Dr. Ledoux's chart: I don't UNDERSTAND the bits about 'receptors' and so on, and if something can block one thing while in turn being blocked by another. That's what it sounds like to me, anyway.)

I also to some degree (and with, I hope, suitable caution) value anecdotal evidence, so sometimes I like to ask about that as well.

If I'm stepping on any toes, kindly ignore! This is just me.

I feel that the anti-spasmodic qualities of clonazepam have helped (I noted this in particular when one benighted doctor told me to go off it within a week—major problems followed.)

I haven't had the experience with Ambien tabs that you mention. I usually sleep 7-8 hours.
However, I've tried Ambien CR three times. Once it seemed to work nicely. The other two times, I felt nauseated and bad the next day.
This has happened to me with a couple of other CR or XR meds as well. I wonder if there is something in the 'extended' component to which some people are sensitive?

Judith K



Modified by judith k at Sat, Aug 28, 2010, 10:36:15

| | Where am I? Original message Top of thread Current page
Re: question about Klonopin together with Ambien
Re: Re: question about Klonopin together with Ambien -- judith k Top of thread Archive
Posted by: hasty ®
08/28/2010, 11:03:39
Judith, there are never any stepped on toes here, we here are all in the confounding wild world of dystonia.

I'm no Einstein, but, at first glance, the potentiating effect of the benzo Klono to the gaba, + the binding effect of the Ambien to the benzo receptor = a good thing. Almost like a reinforcer, for lack of a better term.

But then again, you have much more scientific acumen than I, & hence your question about them working at cross-purposes.

Could your caution/query involve the factor of the timing of your dosages, as in, do you take Klono, along with Ambien, at bedtime?



Modified by hasty at Sat, Aug 28, 2010, 11:36:17

| | Where am I? Original message Top of thread Current page
Re: question about Klonopin together with Ambien
Re: Re: question about Klonopin together with Ambien -- hasty Top of thread Archive
Posted by: judith k ®
08/28/2010, 13:12:45
I don't have particular scientific acumen, and sometimes confuse myself, so I'm not sure of my interpretation of what I read in the chart. Hope someone else will know.
Might be useful to know whether the combination works as a 'reinforcer' or as a wet blanket.

I don't know about the timing of my doses and why my query would involve them.
(?)
I do take both Ambien and clonazepam at bedtime, but some time ago I began taking more clonazepam at bedtime and less in the daytime. Basically the same dose, though.

At least for starters. Dr. J. said if my eyes get very photosensitive, or blinky (that sometimes happens near the end of a cycle), to take more of the stuff.

Judith K




| | Where am I? Original message Top of thread Current page
Re: question about Klonopin together with Ambien
Re: Re: question about Klonopin together with Ambien -- judith k Top of thread Archive
Posted by: hasty ®
08/28/2010, 15:25:11
Oh, I was just wondering if you skipped your bedtime dose of Klono, & took only the Ambien. Or if you were concerned if you took both meds at night, & thus wondered if they counteracted each other. Good for you for phoning the pharmacy! Was gonna suggest that. My local senior pharmacist has been exceptionally astute & educational about pharmaceuticals & interactions.



| | Where am I? Original message Top of thread Current page
Re: question about Klonopin together with Ambien
Re: Re: question about Klonopin together with Ambien -- hasty Top of thread Archive
Posted by: judith k ®
08/28/2010, 15:50:10
Hi, Hasty—

No, I never before gave a thought to clonazepam and Ambien counteracting one other; it's just that when I saw Dr. Ledoux's article, I couldn't figure out what it meant: one thing's receptors blocking another.

Just before we got cut off, the pharmacist had been saying that it's not as if there is a particular receptor for Ambien or whatever—even receptors act differently in the body, and to really have an idea of what was going on, she'd have to look up diagrams of the structure of the medication in question....it was around there the phone call went kaput.

Yes, I like to phone pharmacists too.

Judith K




| | Where am I? Original message Top of thread Current page
Re: question about Klonopin together with Ambien
Re: Re: question about Klonopin together with Ambien -- judith k Top of thread Archive
Posted by: hasty ®
08/28/2010, 16:23:10
Sorry, Judith, just a semantics glitch with me - I took your "working at cross purposes" to mean "counteracting.". And regarding deferring on scientific acumen, do take some credit for your helpful analytical capabilities!


Modified by hasty at Sat, Aug 28, 2010, 16:24:52

| | Where am I? Original message Top of thread Current page
Re: question about Klonopin together with Ambien
Re: question about Klonopin together with Ambien -- judith k Top of thread Archive
Posted by: noonsmom ®
08/28/2010, 11:15:30
Say it ain't so, Judith. Pullease don't take my Ambien away from me!

I take Klon during the day. Sometimes it makes me sleepy in the afternoon (mornings are OK). So I nap. Naps are great but then getting to sleep at night becomes a bit harder. Voila! Enter Ambien. And - if I do get to sleep on my own, and wake up to pee (pardon me) in the middle of the night, I have Sonata which is of shorter duration.

We do what we have to do, but I will be so upset if I find out that Ambien is screwing up my other regimen.

Marcia




| | Where am I? Original message Top of thread Current page
called pharmacy Re: question about Klonopin together with Ambien
Re: Re: question about Klonopin together with Ambien -- noonsmom Top of thread Archive
Posted by: judith k ®
08/28/2010, 13:17:11
I'm not taking your Ambien away from you! I'd have to take it away from myself, and not willing to do that.
I was just focusing on the words in the chart (I've seen that with other meds) and wondering what they meant.

Wait a minute: I'm going to try phoning the pharmacist and hearing what he/she has to say (though not sure this would be the final word).
*Have now called:
OK, DEFINITELY this may not be the final word because my pharmacy just reopened yesterday at a new location, and they are having trouble with their phones. Got cut off while speaking with the pharmacist.
But she did get to say: that clonazepam and Ambien would be working together and you'd actually get an 'increased effect'. Not working at cross-purposes. (Hasty, you were right!)
Only problem is, she said, that Ambien is for sleep and clonazepam can cause drowsiness—so we get that side-effect from both—as we know.

My whole life would be/would have been different if only I could nap. But it's nearly impossible for me to sleep in the daytime, even when exhausted, unless I have jet-lag, or am ill, or have eaten a large lunch in 100o heat.
Alas!

Judith K



Modified by judith k at Sat, Aug 28, 2010, 13:34:04

| | Where am I? Original message Top of thread Current page
trazodone for sleep
Re: called pharmacy Re: question about Klonopin together with Ambien -- judith k Top of thread Archive
Posted by: BarbaraAnn ®
08/28/2010, 21:08:01
Judith..........I had the same problem and neuro prescribed me 150mg (very low dose)of trazodone and I have taken it for years. It puts me to sleep and I awake with no ambien hangover. It is an antidepressant but at such a low dose I have had no problems with it at all.....For it to act as an antidepressant you need to take 300mg.

Any one else out there tried trazodone for sleep?

I wish you the best and hope you find a solution of your sleep problem.

BarbaraAnn




| | Where am I? Original message Top of thread Current page
Re: trazodone for sleep
Re: trazodone for sleep -- BarbaraAnn Top of thread Archive
Posted by: judith k ®
08/28/2010, 22:02:26
Hi Barbara Ann,

I'm not sure what 'the same problem' is. I usually get to sleep on Ambien and have no hangover (I don't think so, anyway!)

I thought an Ambien hangover is like that awful feeling you have if you take it and then DON'T go to sleep (not can't, but don't), and have to stay awake through it...that is really terrible.

My problem is that I can't nap, and sometimes I really need it.

I've been getting very tired in the daytime, maybe it's jet-lag in a more subtle form (have been back from a 10 1/2 time difference for just about 10 days).
I get pretty tired anyway, but not like this.

It will be interesting to see if anyone has tried trazodone. I guess it would have that same (sleep) effect if you were taking it as an antidepressant?

Judith K




| | Where am I? Original message Top of thread Current page
Re: trazodone for sleep/Judith
Re: Re: trazodone for sleep -- judith k Top of thread Archive
Posted by: BarbaraAnn ®
08/29/2010, 09:07:31
I guess I thought that you were having difficulty sleeping at night. For me Ambien always gave me a hangover feeling when I awoke. But it is good that you have not had that feeling.

I know how important it is to nap when you feel you need it.
I always lie down during the day to rest and sometimes I fall asleep and sometimes I dont. However, whenever I turn on a book on tape i fall asleep.

I just returned from a 12+ hour trip from Russia and I know the feeling. I want to sleep but I stay awake. The saying is that for every hour difference in time change it takes you that much time to recover from jet lag. It took me about 10 days to fully recover from my jet lag from Russia.

I travel alot overseas and now I realize that I can't recover as easily as I used to........no doubt it is age.

I hope that someone can suggest some relief for your problem.

Best of luck
BarbaraAnn




| | Where am I? Original message Top of thread Current page
Re: trazodone for sleep
Re: Re: trazodone for sleep -- judith k Top of thread Archive
Posted by: noonsmom ®
08/29/2010, 14:56:42
It's jet lag, Judith. You have to give one day for each hour. You're about due to feel better tomorrow.

Barbara Ann: As for Trazodone - I took 50 mg last night (my husband has a leftover prescription that he stopped taking). It did not get me to sleep as quickly as either Ambien or Sonata does (although I felt dizzy, almost drunk, so I went to bed).

But BOY! when it did kick in - I slept until 9:30 am. Very unusual for me since my bladder always wakes me up. But one of the byproducts is urinary retention.

Here's the final report - I didn't feel rested - I felt wooozy and off kilter. And that's on 50, not 150 mg. I'll stick to my Ambien, thank you.

Marcia




| | Where am I? Original message Top of thread Current page
Re: trazodone for sleep/Noonsmom
Re: Re: trazodone for sleep -- noonsmom Top of thread Archive
Posted by: BarbaraAnn ®
08/30/2010, 07:18:41
Marcia I think that your response sounded a little harsh. Everyone reacts to medication differently. Trazodone works well for me but I do understand that is not for everyone.

Ambien does the opposite for me ....it makes me unbalanced and I have an ambien hangover when I awake. But I know that others do not have that same reaction.

Have a good day
BarbaraAnn



Modified by BarbaraAnn at Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 07:21:55

| | Where am I? Original message Top of thread Current page
Re: trazodone for sleep
Re: trazodone for sleep -- BarbaraAnn Top of thread Archive
Posted by: lightwave ®
08/29/2010, 10:06:41
BarbaraAnn,

I took Desyrel (trazodone) for 14 years for insomnia. Originally, I took 50 mg. but then found I could get the same result with 25 mg. I have had insomnia since childhood. Desyrel worked great; however, the doctor advised me to stop taking it because of the potential for movement disorders (search "desyrel movement disorders" on the web).

More recently, I tried amitryptilene. 30 mg. made me tense with lots of leg movements. Then, I tried 20 mg. and it seemed to do fine for many months. Slowly, I began to bite my lips and had to stop taking amitryptilene. The lip-biting stopped when I stopped taking amitryptilene.

Ambien was a nightmare. It made me sleep walk and call family in the middle of the night to talk about morbid things (none of which I remember).

Sleep is elusive and I am still searching for an answer.

Glynda in Houston, TX




| | Where am I? Original message Top of thread Current page
Re: trazodone for sleep
Re: Re: trazodone for sleep -- lightwave Top of thread Archive
Posted by: judith k ®
08/29/2010, 11:14:04
Hi Glynda,

Ambien: sounds as if you had 'traveler's amnesia' even though you weren't traveling!

That is the kind of thing that's warned about if you take it when your time clock is messed up, or if you can't anticipate having at least 7 hours available for uninterrupted sleep.
(And there have been people who have car accidents in the middle of the night and claim to remember nothing, and that it was the Ambien. Which may be true, though I tend to feel suspicious when those people are politicians or film stars. What prejudice!)

How large a dose were you taking?

Hope sleep doesn't continue to be elusive for you!

Judith K




| | Where am I? Original message Top of thread Current page
Re: trazodone for sleep
Re: Re: trazodone for sleep -- judith k Top of thread Archive
Posted by: lightwave ®
08/29/2010, 13:42:24
Judith,

I don't remember the dose but I do remember that it was small. I am so sensitive to medication, I almost always start out small. Fortunately, I didn't do any sleep driving when taking Ambien.

I have dug out my Alpha-Stim and am going to use it again. It is the only thing that has really helped but it is so temporary. You have to use it consistently for it to help with insomnia. I get so tired of wearing the device and it hurts my ears..but then, I get tired of being tired all the time too from lack of sleep.

Glynda in Houston, TX




| | Where am I? Original message Top of thread Current page
Re: trazodone for sleep
Re: Re: trazodone for sleep -- lightwave Top of thread Archive
Posted by: judith k ®
08/29/2010, 14:42:26
No chance of sleep apnea, or anything like that, right?


Judith K




| | Where am I? Original message Top of thread Current page
Re: trazodone for sleep
Re: Re: trazodone for sleep -- judith k Top of thread Archive
Posted by: lightwave ®
08/29/2010, 15:22:25
Judith,

I have been tested twice for sleep apnea. Both times, I was awake the whole night. I could not sleep with all those wires. They prescribed a CPAP machine anyway and I really tried for 3 months to use it. I tried three different types (whole face, partial face, and nose cannula). I kept waking up with the hose wrapped around my neck and the cannula was blowing air directly into my eyes. I'm too claustrophobic to do the other two types. I can't wear clothing with labels inside..I can't imagine why they would think I could use a CPAP..and I don't even know if I need one. I just seem to be too sensitive to everything. Temperature is a problem too..I'm either too hot or too cold. I have been like this since I was a child..it's like sensory overload.

Glynda in Houston, TX




| | Where am I? Original message Top of thread Current page
Re: trazodone for sleep
Re: Re: trazodone for sleep -- lightwave Top of thread Archive
Posted by: judith k ®
08/29/2010, 15:29:44
This sounds so difficult for you! Very sorry.

What is Alpha-Stim? Generates more alpha waves?

I guess you've had an EEG (or several!) too?


Judith K




| | Where am I? Original message Top of thread Current page
Re: trazodone for sleep
Re: Re: trazodone for sleep -- judith k Top of thread Archive
Posted by: lightwave ®
08/29/2010, 23:44:13
Judith,

Alpha-Stim is a brand of electrical stimulator..this one is approved for insomnia and does help but it's easier to take a pill and go to bed than to use it consistently. The electrodes clip on your ear lobes and it hurts after a while.

Some time ago, someone posted that it helped their BEB. Several tried it for BEB without any luck.

I think I have had every test known to man. I nearly maxed out my insurance trying to find out what I have and don't have. Of the things I do have, insomnia bothers me the most because I am so tired all the time. Add BEB to that mix and there are days that I can barely hold my head up. BUT..life goes on and one can wallow in pity or get up and work their "to do" list.

Glynda in Houston, TX




| | Where am I? Original message Top of thread Current page
Re: trazodone for sleep
Re: Re: trazodone for sleep -- lightwave Top of thread Archive
Posted by: MT ®
08/31/2010, 20:13:02
Trazadone is often perscribed because it is not listed as a "hypnotic" and is more often used when patients are taking meds such as ativan and clon. I think I'll check out more specifics with my consulting pharmacist. However, I have taken Trazadone for sleep and it works well for me when I have needed it. The risk for falls greatly increases when combining Ativan, Valium, clon, with hypnotics such as ambien. It's a matter of risk/benefit for the individual patient.

Michelle




| | Where am I? Original message Top of thread Current page